No Real Progress

It's been a while I know.  And I'm pretty dejected honestly.  On the plus side, my health looks to at least be semi-stable and definite good news that I don't have a tumor (I have severe tinnitus and the doctors were worried).  On the bad side, still no real treatment although I've been working on some self-coping mechanisms that seem to be working somewhat.  The biggest thing that's helped is I wear ear plugs whenever I'm doing ANYTHING remotely loud.  Mowing the lawn, hammering something, etc...  Also when I drive to and from work I'm wearing them.  What it's helped is that while I'm driving the ringing is REALLY loud with the plugs in.  But then when I get out of the truck I at least have some time afterwards where it doesn't SEEM that bad.  It's all about perception :-)

The other main concern was I am losing my hearing.  The audio tests came back basically perfect though.  It's based on a scale of how many db above "perfect" you need to hear different frequencies.  Anything from 0-20 db above "perfect" is considered normal hearing.  I was 0db for all but two frequencies where I was 5db above perfect.  So it doesn't seem like that's something to worry about either.

The bad news is I had a quick blood work done a few weeks ago and found out two disturbing things.  First, my blood pressure is a bit high (very high "normal" range) and my HDL level is 17mg.  Apparently less than 40mg puts you at high risk for heart disease.  From what I've read 17 is a really really bad number.  I need to make an appointment to get a full blood work order done to verify the "quickie" numbers but in the meantime I've started taking an Omega-3 oil supplement (fish, flax, and something else oil) twice a day.  I also want to start exercising more since that's supposed to help too but I just need to get that HDL number up even if it increases my total cholesterol too!  I've been feeling better for the past 10 days or so, but still very questionable.  At least right now I don't seriously think I'm going to die soon :-)  So that's a plus.

On my polygamy quest, well it's really stagnant.  I had dedicated a lot of time to it for a few months.  Unfortunately with the health issues and the fact it's taken up other valuable time for completing projects around the house (that had started stressing me out, which made me feel worse health-wise I think), I really had to put it on the back burner for a bit.  Right now I'm trying to figure out how I want to organize all my research for future reference and just accessibility.  I really got to the point or being very unfocused in my research and would bounce around from topic to topic without a clearly defined goal or process.  It ends up being a lot of wasted research and reading honestly.

Personally, my wife and I have a great relationship.  She is still entirely against the idea of a second wife and I'm highly doubtful she's going to change her mind anytime soon.  That hasn't stopped me from taking all possible "teaching opportunities" to talk to her about it, although it's really boiled down to just "one of those things" from her perspective.  Meaning, she takes it as just me teasing her I think when I mention how a second wife would be a plus in a given situation.

I think for her it really boils down to sharing me and I honestly can't blame her.  Not that I'm the best guy out there, but I can certainly understand her reluctance in sharing me with someone else when she currently has 100% of me.  From her perspective, why should she give up what she already has?

At any rate, I'm still plugging along as I can.  I think I'm going to see if I can use blogspot to help organize my findings.  I think it'll do it... just have to see!  If it does, I hope to be adding some more "static" content here soon.

Lastly, I see I have one more "follower".  Special! :-)

Rough Few Weeks

It's been a rough few weeks.  Not constantly, but filled with rough spots certainly.  As I read more and more I become more convinced living the principle of polygamy is what I should be doing, yet my wife is increasingly resistent.  Things finally came to a head because we both had gotten into "moods" and weren't communicating very well.  Finally my wife broke down and it became abundantly clear I had been failing at comforting her with all my "polygamy" talk.  Looking back I completely understand and see where she was coming from and regret my insensitivity to her feelings.

Luckily we've moved past that... however...

The past few days I've not felt very good at all.  My heart has been acting up a bit and I've just had a general faintness/light headedness.  I'm 80% sure it's anxiety related.  I don't handle stress very well and the issues with my wife, plus working on getting our new house settled, and immense stress at work, I think has just culminated for a very bad case of anxiety.

Luckily today was a good day at work.  A lot of the stress I've been feeling has been lifted, and although things are still what I would call INSANE, I really hope it's not as stressful as it has been the last two weeks.  If I don't feel better soon though I'm going to make an appointment.  I've been putting off going for some other things so I should probably go anyway, it's just finding the time can be difficult!

More to come as life settles down a bit I hope.

Her Pro's & Con's

I was talking to my wife and asked her to come up with a pro/con list of her own.  Here's what she came up with:

Pro's:

• Housework
• More incomes
• Having a friend around all the time 

Con's:

• Sharing my husband
• Having a friend around all the time(lack of privacy)
• More opinions
• Jealousy
• Having to hide from people
• How do you explain it to your kids?
  

For the record, we currently don't have children but probably will in the shorter term (1-2 years).  I could guess most of her items and really appreciate her effort, although I know she hasn't thought about it as much as I have, but I expected that.  Honestly, her list indicates more thought than I figured she'd put into it so that was nice really.

After giving me her list I gave her the one I had come up with (for all three perspectives).  This was her reply (we were both at work chatting over IM):

"Just want you to know that I'm totally fine talking about it and even with the pro con list and stuff, I really am. But I'm not going to change my mind on participating in it..."

So no advancement on that front just now.  But that's alright, I know I still have lots of work to do in helping her gain a testimony of polygamy in general.  She's certainly not violently opposed to it like many people, I would say she's more neutral unless I'm saying it's what I want to do :-)

Pro's & Con's

Okay, this is something I typed up literally in 10 minutes without very much thought and tries to address some of the spiritual but also secular issues I can see with a polygamous lifestyle.

This came about due to a conversation my wife and I had about a friend of hers.  The sexual side of things has always been something that's bugged her about the whole concept.  We got to talking about it recently and I told her the sexual side isn't one of the things that makes me interested in polygamy.  She couldn't believe me and wanted to know why I would want to then.

Granted, I've of course considered that aspect, but I truly can say in all honesty that it does not make me want to do this any more or any less than otherwise.  I tried explaining to my wife that I have always been more than satisfied sexually and asked her what I would possibly want that she hasn't already provided or isn't willing to provide.  That stumped her a bit, but I think she's still skeptical...  So I spouted out some of the reasons below but I really hadn't sat down to start a list of the things.

These aren't so much spiritual I guess as they are practical since I don't think my wife has really grasped onto the importance of this principle.

From a husband's perspective:

Pro's:

• Joy of expanding a tight-knit family
• Assuming it is required at some point (now or after death), get a head start.  Would rather be able to pick someone who's compatible and good now than sort through those that didn't get married already.  Higher chance that there's a REASON they were alone...  Yes, this is cruel perhaps, but I know even many of my wife's single friends are single for good reason.
  
• I enjoy having the opportunity to take care of people.
• Have someone to do things with "boss lady" (from Big Love of course) when interests match or I'm busy, etc...
  
• Someone to share the load of household chores/errands/etc...
• Can provide someone deserving of a strong, healthy, and good relationship.
• Share and grow our love
• Additional income possibilities
• Much increased self-reliance.  Working towards a common goal in preparedness.
  

Con's:

• Additional financial obligation
• Dealing with two different female personalities
• Dealing with jealousy issues that araise.
• Figuring out family logistics and planning (insurance, legal issues, schedules, etc...)
  
• How to live public and private household/life.  Can we be fully integrated or need to separate things out?
  
• Family/friends reactions 
• Not so much a con as a challenge (could be fun/exciting, just have to be aware)...  Ensuring equal treatment of wives in gifts, time, etc...  Not on an exactly 1:1 ratio necessarily, just need to be always aware and not neglect anyone.
  

From a first wife's perspective:

Pro's:

• Having a female partner to bounce ideas off of and relate with
  
• Have someone to help share the load of household chores and errands
• Build another eternal loving relationship
• Time spent together with husband is more special since it's more restricted.
• Truly embrace the "sister" in sister-wife.
• More time to pursue personal and other valuable hobbies and also have someone that is interested and can learn with where interests overlap (gardening, chickens, sewing, nutrition/cooking, makeup, etc...)
  
• Other similar pro's to husband
  

Con's:

• Dealing with jealousy issues regarding affection shown towards other wife, loss of exclusivity for time and attention, sexual interactions, etc...
• Another person to participate in decisions (can be a pro too of course)
• Other similar con's to husband
  

From a second wife's perspective:

Pro's:

• Stability of coming into an established relationship
  
• Opportunity to pick a proven "good man", not just a guess at the best "single" man.
• Similar pro's to 1st wife.
  

Con's:

• Coming into relationship can be difficult as an outsider.  Some risk involved.
• Can't expect full "tenure" right off the bat.  Must be earned through trust, trial, and time.  This is something I'm torn on and struggle with.  On one side I want everyone to be on an equal footing as far as the family goes.  At the same time, how can I put to risk a decade of effort and give equally "right off the bat" without some kind of proving process?  This is a very difficult one for me.
  
• Similar con's to 1st wife.

This list isn't really for other people.  If it offends you or you think I'm shallow, I'm sorry you feel that way.  I've by no means completed my studies, even in the slightest.  I can only write down what I feel at this point in my journey.  I may not be ready to live such a life, and that's ok.  It shouldn't be something done lightly without a lot of consideration which is what I'm trying to do!

Response to other comments

There were so many other comments to my post about Hinckley's YouTube video.  I wanted to take a chance and respond to them (in case they come back to read it) after I had a chance to think about things for a bit...

"It is more complex and challenging than simple monogamy"

True, but I've got to tell you the challenge excites me like I can't describe.  I think I've realized the past few days that I have always been a polygamist at heart and just pushed it out of me because I was raised being told it was bad/evil/mistake.

"Woodruff got a revelation in Nov'1889 telling him to make no more concessions concerning plural marriage. When he did finally publish the Manifesto (a document that had been being edited for five years), only three of the 15 apostles would even sign it."

I would really REALLY love some kind of proof for this.  Not that I doubt it's true as that seems entirely likely.  I just love having facts to back things up, especially as I have some pretty insightful and honest conversations about this subject with one of my coworkers.  If someone can provide something that'd be great, otherwise I've got more research to do it seems!

"Woodruff added a plural wife in 1896....In fact, the 1889 revelation was the last one Woodruff received. In it, the Lord promised him that, were he to relent on plural marriage, the heavenly manifestations would cease"

Again, I hate to be a stickler, but some citations or references I could check out would be GREAT.  I checked out FamilySearch.org and it doesn't show him adding any wives then so I'm very curious to see that...

Regarding the quote of John Taylor from the Deseret News in 1885.  Wow.  That's pretty strong wording and consequences.  Best of all... it makes sense.

"One of the things a lot of people simply don't grasp about this life (or plural marriage in this life) is that this life is an apprenticeship - and, for the children of the Lord's House, it is an apprenticeship for Godhood"

Exactly!  Now that's not to say that I believe God requires us to live 100% to his standards in this life to attain eventual Godhood.  We all make mistakes and it's about continual progression.  So I don't fault anyone who feels unable or inadequate to live the principle.  At the same time, I can't express how much it baffles me that the punishment for trying to live a higher law is complete excommunication.  It makes no sense to me.  The only possible excuse/reason I see is obeying the laws of the land.  But I don't see illegal aliens resulting in excommunication so that's bogus as far as I'm concerned.  If you're able to live the principle now, great.

"She has deep insecurities... which would keep her from being a good sister-wife.  She believes she "owns" her husband and WILL NOT share him."

That certainly sums up my situation.  The hardest thing for her would be sharing me sexually (not that I'm anything to talk about, but she would be very jealous of this).  Followed closely by just having to share my time at all when currently she has 100% of my attention when we're together at home.

The rest of those last two comments I really don't know how to respond at this point, it's pretty much far beyond my current level of comprehension.  Suffice it to say that I am big on preparedness and have many of the same concerns regarding the current and future state of affairs we will face.

Thanks again for all the great comments.  They are VERY thought-provoking to say the least!

Response to Families or Felons

A recent comment suggested I read a post titled, "Families or Felons:

http://fallofreynolds.blogspot.com/2009/02/families-or-felons.html

I loved this post and it perfectly illustrates how absurd the law is on this issue.   Thanks to the commenter for pointing this post out to me!

Thoughts about President Hinckley statement on polygamy

Through my searching I found a clip from Pres. Hinckley on Larry King Live that was somewhat troubling to me as a Latter-Day Saint.   If you forward to 3:20 in the clip you hear him say "it" is not doctrinal.  Well there's two ways to take what "it" is.  "It" is either the practice of polygamy in general OR the continued practice by the FLDS-type groups.  You can make an argument either way.  What is disheartening is that I'm unaware of any clarification provided that would help distinguish which he actually was referring to.

It's things like this that annoy me.  It's no surprise so many members, when asked if polygamy is part of the LDS gospel, respond that it was a mistake, etc...  Well if you believe it was a mistake, I don't see how you can have a testimony of Joseph Smith.  And taking that a step further, the Book of Mormon in general.  So why are you even a member of the LDS faith?  That makes zero sense to me.  It was intentional and the church fought hard to continue its' practice.

Anyway, the video is linked below.  It's posted by an obvious anti-Mormon but if you just listen to the actual audio it's somewhat interesting.

If you couldn't notice I've been doing a lot of my research on polygamy based on LDS gospel recently.  I figure I need to first determine if it's something God ordains, the current LDS church stance and REASONING behind prohibiting polygamy, and go from there.

My wife joked around with her best friend just yesterday that I'd make a good husband for both of them (her friend is having marital issues right now) but she couldn't share the sex part.  That took me completely off guard.  Maybe watching Big Love together (her idea) is rubbing off on her after all ;-)

Watch Video

Thoughts on Polyamory

I've been doing research based on a comment my last post generated that suggested I added polyamory to my research.  I checked out the suggested sites and learned quite a bit.  While I don't believe it's what I'm looking for personally, I do think there's a lot I can learn from talking with those involved in polyamorous relationships so I'll keep along those lines for a while.

To address specific parts of the comment made...

"you're recognizing the issues, and you're willing to give your wife's feelings equal weight with your own. Hold onto that perspective. It's critical."

I couldn't agree more.  For me it's essential all parties be on board and secure in what happens.  That's one of the things I don't really like from the ways I've seen polygamy lived is too often it's either the husband or the new wife that feels strongly they should be married, and the other parties just have to go along with it.  In fact, for those that base their polygamous lifestyle after LDS scripture, that is completely wrong.  The key phrase is in D&C 132:61 where it talks about taking on another wife "and the first give her consent".  That's a big conditional that I think has been overlooked in a lot of FLDS-type situations, again from my observation.

I can't imagine taking on a 2nd wife unless my 1st wife was 100% on board.  Our relationship is too  important to make her compromise like that.  I realize that might mean it's not meant to be, but I have a feeling deep down she will be receptive, in time...

"Most people on the "polyamorous" side believe that power imbalances MUST be avoided. The idea that there's a "head of the household" who has final say on everything would be seen as dangerous. It's very hard to keep that kind of power from corrupting you, and having to influence a final arbiter tends to corrupt the relationships between everybody else. I've heard that described as a problem by FLDS ex-wives, and I mention it because I'm under the impression that LDS culture in general still has the idea that the man is, in some sense, in charge."

 This is a tricky one.  I don't want to come off as a power hungry or sexist guy, but I have to say I strongly believe in the concept of a head of household.  I believe men and women exist and are built different to specialize in different things.  That's not to say I think a woman should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen (I do all the laundry for me and my wife currently among other stereotypically "woman" tasks), but it's just the way nature has created us.  At the same time, I see VERY clearly the danger of what you're talking about with power imbalances and have given much thought on the matter.

One thing I hadn't considered too much that I'm glad you brought up is the "having to influence a final arbiter" statement.  That's a real danger and something I need to give a lot more thought to.  Currently it's more of a game than anything else.  If my wife wants something she will always have it, but sometimes it's a flirty game we play to "convince" me she needs it or deserves it.  I can see how that would change when there is an actual conflict between the two wives where it could become devisive and hammer a wedge in the relationship of all partners.

To your last statement about the LDS culture holding onto the man being in charge.  I would say that's true especially taken from a secular perspective.  I would clarify though I view it as the man being in charge... of some things, and the woman in charge of other things, both equally important, just different.  I think the difference lies in a lot of people viewing things the man is in charge of as the "important" items, and is why they say the man is in charge.

"I think you may have a hard time bringing it up with your wife, because she will have seen the same sort of cold emptiness you've seen. She may have even seen physical abuse, or more likely emotional abuse, that she's never mentioned to you."

 Possible certainly.  I'm fairly confident she never saw physical abuse, but I know the emotional abuse is there.  I don't think most of it's even due to the polygamous lifestyle she witnessed (her parents were involved in the culture but not actually practicing polygamists) but just the fact the emotional neglect she experienced from her parents tied to that environment, leaves a bad taste.  Plus the only way she's seen a poly lifestyle lived is something she'd never tolerate.  Which is good because neither could I :-)

"Your wife may be conditioned to see anything plural as ignoring women's will, feelings, and autonomy. I don't have good advice on how to get past that, if it's even possible, but I suspect it will be a big problem. Her experiences may have made it impossible for her to live poly happily, and maybe even impossible to bring it up with her."

 Most definitely.  I am fully committed to avoiding that at all costs.  We've been able to talk about plural at a very superficial high-level and she's comfortable talking about it.  I never push the issue when she starts to get uncomfortable and try to reassure her.  It's gotten easier to talk about the past 6 months or so.

"I can suggest a possible starting exercise for you. How would you react if she said she wanted two husbands? Would that be OK with you? What would be your worries and reservations? If it wouldn't be OK, why do you think the opposite situation would be OK with her?"

If that isn't the elephant in the room I don't know what is! :-)  I have given that some thought previously and knew it was something I needed to address.  I guess I just wanted to figure out if all the other things would work out before tackling the hardest part.... feelings.  Just off-hand, it would definitely hurt my feelings if she wanted a 2nd husband.  I think giving up having 100% of her time and attention for 50% would also be very difficult for me to handle.  I am also somewhat an "alpha male" and could see being very territorial about things, beyond just my wife.  Even simple things like landscaping, car maintenance and purchases, budgeting, etc...  I guess with those items though it's more that I know my wife and I work as a really good team to come up with something we both want to work towards (like designing a bathroom remodel, what car to buy, where to vacation, etc...) and so I think the big thing there is not trusting that someone else would be  100% in sync with us.  I know these are the same type of things she will be feeling and I don't know how to resolve most of them... yet ;-)  But thanks for prodding me to give it more thought, I know it's the direction I need to come from in order to make it work.

"Finances... um... in my world, everybody has a paying job, or at least there's no particular expectation that anybody won't. Under those circumstances, more people tends to translate to more money. Maybe that's less true in your world."

Yeah, I know we want kids, but haven't made it a priority to this point.  I view all three of us working, at least for a time, who knows how long?  What I meant with finances is I want to research what works for different people...  For instance, having separate bank accounts, how do you legally pool resources for all parties (as only me and my 1st wife would be legally married).  Do you form a trust, partnership, etc...  Those sorts of issues.

Also, insurance is a big one.  That involves more private research with my current insurance company I know, but I'll take what I can learn about various options as I find them!

"Family... Yeah, you can lose family over this stuff. Most families are more accommodating than people give them credit for, but that does not mean *all* families. My big advice would be to make sure to come out to people under controlled circumstances."

 That's probably one of my top three fears in pursuing a plural life.  I think it's because at the point where I would tell our family of our decision we would've already worked out all of the logistics, feelings, and insecurities and would be full steam ahead.  If I bring it up with my wife and we decide it's not something we want to do, I think we can discuss it without damaging our relationship.  In other words, I truly think we could talk about it and keep living our monogamous life just fine if we opt not to find a 2nd wife.  At the point where we tell our family though, there isn't any "oh well nevermind" escape factor.  We're committed!  So that's what is scary.  A controlled circumstance will be key, even then I don't anticipate it going over very well and will probably take quite a while before they're anywhere close to accepting our choice as something they can live with.

"you have to be honest from day one; you can't spring it on people after dating them."

 One of the FAQs on the sites you mentioned talked about cheating and I really liked how they put it.  I would view dating someone and THEN bringing it up to my wife as 100% cheating on her, so I agree completely on your point.  In fact, I would almost prefer that she be involved from the very beginning in not just knowing about it, but actually helping decide on any candidates before it goes anywhere at all.

Overall, I really appreciated the comment, it was incredibly thought provoking and also exposed me to a plural lifestyle that I hadn't even heard of before.  While I don't believe polyamory is the right fit for me, and am even more sure my wife would be less ok with it than what I had been considering, I do feel the different perspectives on plural relationships in general will be a great resource to tap.  I can also see where they might be more open to talk about issues and that would be very beneficial as well.